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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2012 :  16:38:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And a third wheel would make the bike a bicycle by definition. . .
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Dreamer
recumbent guru

USA
607 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2012 :  17:47:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It would seem that a faired component by definition would have a frontal area no larger than the component itself. ie. (it's a faired component not a fairing surrounding a component.) If so than a faired pedal would be allowed an aerodynamic shape integral to the pedal structure with a frontal area equal to the frontal area of that pedal structure. The WRRA determination is not only fair, it also makes a lot of sense.

Don
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loran-s
Starting Member

France
11 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  00:09:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer

It would seem that a faired component by definition would have a frontal area no larger than the component itself. ie. (it's a faired component not a fairing surrounding a component.) If so than a faired pedal would be allowed an aerodynamic shape integral to the pedal structure with a frontal area equal to the frontal area of that pedal structure. The WRRA determination is not only fair, it also makes a lot of sense.

Don


You mean the forthcoming pedal Look KEO AERO II-R will be allowed ?
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Auré
Starting Member

France
48 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  01:42:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

The Look KEO AERO II-R could be soon allowed ? It will be useless because bike shoes will be soon disalowed, they are fairing for toes :D

Gugi100 ( Gert Jan ) ! What a pleasure to read you! You've still forgot to deliver me the 150€ price you talked here : http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2191&whichpage=3 ! :D

More seriously, everybody seems agree in the fact that the frame wich is wearing the torso of the rider, could be aerodynamic. Of course without surrounding the rider body to prevente the drifts to fairing. In this case, the nocom have enough arguments to raise questions of legitimacy. Personnaly I don't matter in the tuft testing result, because the question is not the result of this test but if it overtly attempt to re-attach airflow. And this is pretty tendentious that it overtly attempt ( with or without succes to re-attach airflow.


Like the frame, the pedals and the shoes, wear the rider body, and like the frame they could be aerodynamic. So even if the idea could be strange in the first time, this is pure logic. It's so simple. And like for the torso, until there is not shape of the bike surrounding the rider body, it couldn't be say that it overtly direct airflow around the rider's body.

The link between aerodynamic pedals and nocom is here, why the WRRA comite allow the Nocom wich is tendencious, and disallow aerodynamic pedals wich are legitimate with unraired rules ?

Really nobody understand that.

It's moreover hard to understand that the WRRA comite have no logical argument to explain his choice.

And I'm really puzzled when despite all, the WRRA continuous to say that their rules are enough clear.

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loran-s
Starting Member

France
11 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  02:19:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the the first aero wheel had just covers on. Not part of its "structure".

What if such an aero wheel was created and available just now, do we disallow it ?

- Because the cover is not part of its structure ?
- Because it's an attempt (especially on a low racer) to to reduce the drag from the turbulence created by the body ?

Or do we add a specific rule : "aero wheels are allowed" (regardless of its effect on reducing the drag created by the body) .

Having the rear wheel behind the body is fortunate for low- racers recumbents because "aero wheels are allowed".

Having the pedal (defintely a bike component) at the very front of the body is could be fortunate for any recumbent because "aero pedals are could be allowed"

We definitely have to define what is an aero pedal. How much shoe must be visible not to be considered as a fairing.

Then they could become available for purchase just like MAVIC or CORIMA (or whatever) faired wheels, Either as Look KEO AERO II-R of from R.A.P. Inc (Recumbent Aero Pedal Inc) for the benefit of many recumbent racers.

A shoe, as anything on the body, should closely follow body curves.

Edited by - loran-s on 06/01/2012 07:34:29
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2478 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  07:40:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Aure and Loran, I understand your discussion. I believe the is no chance of any reattachment of airflow with current designs. A wheel or seats stays cannot reattach air. As the Europeans are the one who developed tailfairings who take advantage of airflow reattachment, you can easily see what is needed. However, what I would like to ask you is this: Imagine yourself creating rules for a nonfaired recumbent catagory. Then imagine how you would deal with every single very clever bike designer who tries to build aerodynamic aids into his bike. At the onset, what would you say is allowed? Then, what new inventions would you allow? Plus, once something is allowed, what happens years later when people then decide it doesn't conform to the rules? Do you pull a UCI Eddt Merckx and roll the rules backward. The people who created the WRRA and it's rules are regular human beings. They have no windtunnel or crystal ball. Perhaps you will get fed up with the WRRA and create your own organization. I cannot wait because I will be the first to design a bike to get around your rules. And then I will say the rules weren't right to begin with. Then, just maybe I will form my own organization..... Or, we can supoort our present organization, follow it's guildelines, and adhere to their decisions.
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warren
human power expert

USA
4905 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  07:49:40  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Auré,

Would you consider another record run without the shoe fairings?

-Warren.
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Gugi100
New Member

Netherlands
79 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  08:48:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Auré



Gugi100 ( Gert Jan ) ! What a pleasure to read you! You've still forgot to deliver me the 150€ price you talked here : http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2191&whichpage=3 ! :D



I didnot forget. I have tried to contact you several times, also on this adres m5sudouest@free.fr. and did not get a reply. I need you bancaccountnumber. I will try once agian via m5sudouest@free.fr.

Gr GJ

Edited by - Gugi100 on 06/01/2012 09:02:54
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Auré
Starting Member

France
48 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  09:25:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

Hey Auré,

Would you consider another record run without the shoe fairings?

-Warren.



My next hour attempt should be, I hope, at the DEKKRA in the end of July, in a new streamliner. If all go right, I hope also be present at BM in september.
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  09:27:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any pictures of said streamliner?
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Auré
Starting Member

France
48 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  09:45:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It will be revealed soon ;)
The team who build it, should make it ready in use in the end of June. We hope of course be enough fast to be able to attempt and overtake world hour record and 200 meters fly start. But we also see that it is more and more hard in fully faired category to be faster than the world records...
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3467 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  11:44:05  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aure,

Many may think that your 56.597 km is your best one hour ever, BUT few (besides me!) know that you did 60.572 km in a Milan SL Velomobile at the 2011 Monza WHPVA World Championships.

I fully expect that you can do 95 KM in a proper fully faired machine and break the World -streamlined- Record too!

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/fastest_list.asp
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2304 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  21:18:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is it the Pulse streamliner from Policumbent?http://www.facebook.com/policumbent
It looks like a better Flying Cucumber.

Larry Lem

Edited by - Larry Lem on 06/01/2012 21:26:32
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Auré
Starting Member

France
48 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2012 :  23:24:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@ Upright Mike :
Thanks you. I see that you are a truly recumbent wise !

@ Larry Lem :
This is not the Pulse streamliner from Policumbent. It will be the Altaďr 4 from Studiant French team of Annecy IUT.
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2012 :  17:05:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
interesting...I was wondering what Altair team was doing. BM this year be crazy! So many new bikes.
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Auré
Starting Member

France
48 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2012 :  03:06:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All split time avaible here :

http://m5sudouest.free.fr/Heure_Aurelien_Bonneteau.pdf

Edited by - Auré on 06/20/2012 03:06:58
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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
281 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  06:54:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Baah! Humbug! I'm surprised no one else ever thought to fair the pedals twenty years ago. How would one fair pedals "legally"? Offhand I like Upright Mike's idea of two classes of unfaired recumbents, rock it old school 1934 Velocar with a steel frame and spoked wheels and a new school innovation class. The sudden influx of fresh ideas and young world class athletes to recumbent racing reminds me of what happened to the Indianapolis 500 race in 1960. Folks had to do a rethink that maybe a tall heavy front engined roadster wasn't the state of the art after all.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2478 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  08:52:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why do you keep using the the words "faired pedals" and "unfaired" in the same sentance? Why do you want something faired in nonfaired? It would make more sense to rename taifaired as partially faired and allow one or the other. Wait a minute, the Midwest Streamliner series(now the HPRA) initiated that in the late 80s.
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randy
recumbent guru

721 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  11:10:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are a lot of faired parts on an "unfaired" bike. We can call them shoe splitters or covers if it makes a difference.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2478 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  11:51:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Randy G. for president of the World Prone or Supine, Kind of Faired, but Unfaired Recumbent Racing Organization! The W.P.S.K.F.U.R.R.O.
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randy
recumbent guru

721 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  12:42:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Randy G. for president of the World...



That has a nice ring to it. If you vote for me I promise two shoe fairings for every recumbent.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2478 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  13:05:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just don't bog us down with any pesky rules. Just think of the cool bikes we will get to ride!
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tim_turner
recumbent enthusiast

USA
232 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  15:26:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
do I get 4 faired pedals if I vote twice?

T
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2478 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  18:49:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Vote early and often.
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Ivo.M
Starting Member

Germany
19 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2012 :  08:47:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FYI: Eastern Germany, ca. 1961.




Edited by - Ivo.M on 07/08/2012 08:48:49
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