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Dreamer
recumbent guru

USA
607 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  19:38:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
If the CdA of the Delft Velox is 0.030 square meters and Sebastiaan achieved a steady-state speed through the timing traps with a 750 W power-level, then it would take about 1500 W to go 100 mph or a similar 2x reduction in drag (a CdA of about 0.015 square meters).



Same logic suggests that lowering the Velox next generation cdA to 0.029 will set a new world record with the same 750 watts. Sebastian is smarter, more experienced, and a bit older and the design team can build a better machine. I wish Graeme the best but Delft has a lot going for a shot at the new world record.
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  19:50:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer
. . .and the design team can build a better machine.



Of note, it is a completely different design team from last year so hopefully they have learned something from the previous years' design team. . .
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  19:52:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hopefully not too much...the rest of us need a chance!
:P

Victor
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2319 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  20:49:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Victor,
If you build a Battle Mountain-specific liner with Todd as the engine, you'll be right in the hunt.

Larry Lem
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legslarry
recumbent enthusiast

United Kingdom
328 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  01:21:40  Show Profile  Visit legslarry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Runxner

uh,oh,I read a mention about prone in posts about an interview. Cool breeze?



More likely one of the 70's jobs. The faired Cool Breeze only appeared twice, on both occasions in road races. One DNF, one DNS.

Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
=============================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2500 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  07:43:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Definitely sounds prone. I've never seen a serious, modern, composite prone bike. Could be interesting.
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nyh
recumbent enthusiast

Netherlands
181 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  08:53:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Definitely sounds prone. I've never seen a serious, modern, composite prone bike. Could be interesting.


Th last prone bike came from... Delft!
http://lr.tudelft.nl/index.php?id=27031&L=1
http://www.myvoice.nl/ligfiets/ProneBike/album.php
The webpages from prone bike have lost their information:
http://pronebike.nlbike.nl/index.php

Hans Wessels

Edited by - nyh on 12/21/2011 08:58:15
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2500 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  11:12:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very small! Thanks Hans.
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1978 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  12:26:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, I made a correct prediction on prone. Tonight's lottery numbers are 91965. Graham's birthday. Just 19 days before mine.

Will it be superman or chickenman position? I haven't a clue.

Sean
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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
281 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2011 :  11:07:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Things will be interesting next year at Battle Mountain, with the innovative and always focused and tough G. Obree there to race. It wouldn't be the first time he emerged from the mists of Scotland to shake things up.
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purplepeopledesign
recumbent guru

Canada
590 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2011 :  18:11:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Runxner, it looks like I am thoroughly spanked... and by the Dutch! Orange you turning red, eh?

:)ensen.

Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it.

Video of my trike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSLRD_2vzc
Photos of my trike
http://www.flickr.com/photos/purplepeople/
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Flying-Gnome
recumbent enthusiast

Australia
106 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2011 :  00:54:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Spending 6 hr prone in a hangglider can be quite comfortable. Such a bike package could be quick. I also calculated doubling of power for same vehicle from 80 to 100 MPH. CdA is linear in effect, power is cubic. 100 MPH is a tough ask.
Whatever happens, it should be a good show.

Ken H
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3487 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2011 :  09:31:17  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Although Battle Mountain is all about top speed, it would be awesome if Graeme Obree, Francesco Russo, Damjan Zabovnik, Sam & Barbara all showed up to discuss their historical and current Bicycle 10-mile, 25-mile, 50-mile and One Hour! Great cyclists, great people who are good at more than just top speed ...
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4335
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Ross Jensen
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2011 :  17:10:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This guy probably doesn't really know what he's getting into... Hey I ran aerodynamics on my bike on the computer it says I can go like 95mph!!!! oh wait theirs things like parasitic drag and unless he has someone with a masters in aerodynamics behind him, and a set of legs that rivals pro track sprinters, theres no way... we're reaching a wall and I can't see it going that much faster until there are new surface coatings to make the bikes smoother to allow longer bikes (smoother flow) without the losses due to surface friction. Plus even if the person is awesome on an upright, recumbents limit the muscle groups you can use and that racer doesn't have the access to those muscles in the positions they are put in.
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2011 :  17:31:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
well, he DOES have track sprinting legs, given that he was world champion, as well as hour record holder. That was 15-20 years ago, but he probably still has it enough not to be dismissed.

George doesnt have a Masters in Aerodynamics, and yet his bike is pretty good... trial and error and time can be just as good of a substitute for engineering, it just takes a lot longer.

100mph is probably very difficult. 90mph is probably achievable with the new Delft and we calculated 80+mph for our new ASME bike, using rather conservative numbers, based on our last 2 year bikes, as well as Delft's.

I dont think Obree knows now how to get to 100mph. However, he seems like the kind of person who will try things, and i hope he has enough time to come to a good solution.

I see many engineers that dismiss others who dont have the same training, but that is a wrong attitude. There are many ways to get to a good solution, and engineering tools are only one way (fastest and probably best way, but not the only one :D).

Victor
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2012 :  05:21:43  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interesting that Obree is thinking about the 200m. I know he did a lot of different bike racing when younger, but I thought long distance power was his forte, not sprints?

I didn't see where "he" claimed he'd aim for 100mph, just that he said it would not be nice to crash at that speed. I think 90 mph is going to be a tough number to aim for, and 100mph is going to be a long time off. Graham is also taller than Sam and Damjan, but narrower than Sam, I think. What his fairing might save in width, he's likely going to lose in surface drag from length, especially prone.

As a hang glider, comparing that position to one in a bike is a moot point. The coccoon harnesses are full support and little is moving except the arms. A prone position would be tough to produce max power in while supporting the hip bones without affecting the hip joint, and supporting the torso somewhere (like the sternum) without affecting either chest or belly breathing is tough because breathing tends to want to lift the body weight. Shoulder stirrups solve the force issue, but max power on a hardcore prone bike isn't an easy design. I still have prone prototype hanging on the wall that I look at every once in a while to see if I can address the issues. It's also still mainly there because prone is not allowed for HPRA/WRRA racing (I thought). Prone bikes have the potential to be pretty awesome at hill climbing events though. In the end, I think Damjan's supine prone is the smart way to do it, mind you, a prone bike only needs to be dealt with for about 5 minutes.

Interesting comments about the amount of power Sam puts out for the 200m run - around 800W max at full sprint, and others in bent racing can and do put out more? I wonder what Graham's power would be in the recumbent position like Sam's.

Edited by - 25hz on 01/03/2012 06:34:22
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2319 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2012 :  06:31:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Damjan rides a supine recumbent, not a supine prone. He happens to be moving head-first instead of feet first.

Larry Lem
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2012 :  06:34:55  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Meh . . mental typo. :)
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Alan Krause
recumbent guru

592 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2012 :  18:31:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://road.cc/content/news/49615-graeme-obree-facing-dutch-competition-human-powered-vehicle-record-attempt-video
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2500 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2012 :  21:42:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, assuming Delft advances their design, and with Theo Bos' brother on the pedals it could be interesting. Especially if Obree steps up. Not forgetting Sam, of course. Could be epic.
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1978 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2012 :  04:51:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is going to be a wickedly tough year at Battle Mountain. Jan has the right physical build for streamliners. Most sprinters have these broad shoulders (useless and hard to package), but the Bos brothers are all legs. Excellent choice of rider.

Sean
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jnyyz
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
269 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2012 :  08:33:40  Show Profile  Visit jnyyz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
are those 2012 dates in the article (Sept 10-15) official? Bummer, first week of classes again.

OK, I see the answer to my question on another thread.

http://jnyyz.wordpress.com/

Edited by - jnyyz on 01/12/2012 12:30:08
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Adam C
recumbent enthusiast

USA
227 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2012 :  09:55:40  Show Profile  Visit Adam C's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

Interesting that Obree is thinking about the 200m. I know he did a lot of different bike racing when younger, but I thought long distance power was his forte, not sprints?



Obree was a two time World champion in the 4,000 meter pursuit in 1993 and 1995.
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Adam C
recumbent enthusiast

USA
227 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2012 :  12:38:16  Show Profile  Visit Adam C's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wonder if this is going to start an "arms race", or more accurately a "legs race" to find the most powerful and elite rider? I may need to go take a trip to the Midwest and find some monster speed skater.

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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2319 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2012 :  14:11:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Finding the strongest rider isn't anything "new". Finding a strong rider that is willing has always been a problem.

Larry Lem
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