www.recumbents.com - High-altitude tracks for One Hour?
www.recumbents.com
www.recumbents.com
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
 All Forums
 www.recumbents.com
 HPV Racing
 High-altitude tracks for One Hour?
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  17:41:02  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Part of my "hobbies" is looking at Test Tracks for potential race events. Some questions for all the geniuses out there...

How much speed can be gained going from sea-level to 500 foot, 1000 foot, 2000 foot, 2700 foot, 3000 foot elevation for a One Hour run?Assumptions: same track surface, zero degree slope, same rolling resistance, same temperature, relative humidity, barometric pressure etc.

A) If a cyclist (Francesco Russo) can do 56.9 mph (91.6 kmh) at 393 feet, 120 meters at the DEKRA TRACK, what would he gain by going to a 2700 foot, 822 meter track in TEXAS?

B) If a cyclist (Sam Whittingham) can do 56.3 mph (90.6 kmh) at 968 feet, 295 meters at the FORD TRACK what would he gain by going to a 2700 foot, 822 meter track in TEXAS?

PS: I'm now fortunate enough to have a cubicle overlooking Ford's Dearborn 2.58 mile test track, so when I can, I ask myself these questions. However I'm rarely in the office, instead working at another location. I work in the testing group. In 2009, with the gracious permission of my boss, his boss, and his boss etc. I was able to host the Ford Speed Challenge on our world-class 5 mile track in Romeo that was recently repaved. Ten world records were set including Sam and Barbara setting new One-Hour records, Hans and Ellen setting new Six-Hour records, etc.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/FordChallenge2009/

Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/27/2011 15:31:55

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  18:15:00  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
SOME TEST TRACKS FOR COMPARISON
The elevations for Dektra, Ford, Nissan, Opel are known from record attempts. The other elevations are approximate averages from what I can see on MapMyRide. MapMyRide shows large elevation changes even on tracks that are known to be flat, because they are likely mapping the surrounding terrain. Some tracks are cut into the terrain and made flat.

Test Track - Lelystad, Netherlands
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/58756582
1.75 miles, 2.8 km length
15 foot, 5 meters elevation (sea-level)
Note: Site of Cyclevision and also practice runs

Lang-Lang Proving Grounds - Australia
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/6297085
2.92 miles, 4.7 km length
50 foot, 15 meters elevation
Note: near sea-level, Site of Oz HPV Challenge.

CERAM Test Track, Mortefontaine, France
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/58756198
1.85 miles, 3.0 km length
215 foot, 65 meters elevation
Note: site of practice runs

Dekra Test Oval - Germany
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/16961705
3.62 mile, 5.8 km length
393 foot, 120 meters elevation
Note: Site of World Records in 2008 thru 2011.

Opel Proving Grounds - Germany
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/58755504
2.99 miles, 4.8 km length
445 feet, 135 meters elevation
Note: Site of Sam Whittingham's 52.33 mph world record

Ford Proving Grounds - Romeo, Michigan
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/4881908
5 miles, 8 km length
968 foot, 295 meters elevation
Note: Site of World Records in 2009.

Nissan Proving Grounds - Casa Grande, Arizona
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/13265330
5.68 miles, 9.14 km length
1463 foot, 446 meters elevation
Note: Site of World Records in 2006 and 2007. Dry desert track.

Proving Grounds - Wickenburg, Arizona
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/13265596
4.14 miles, 6.67 km length
1750 foot, 533 meters elevation
Note: - need to verify who owns this track. Dry desert oval.

Las Vegas Motor Speedway - Nevada
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/58748124
1.5 miles, 2.4 km length
2000 foot, 609 meters elevation
Note: An 8 hour drive south of Battle Mountain. Dry desert track.

Chrysler (formerly Ford) Proving Grounds - Yucca, Arizona
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/13145294
5.0 miles, 8 km length
2000 foot, 609 meters elevation
Note: Dry desert track.

Honda Proving Grounds (former name), East Kern, California
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/26942254
7.5 miles, 12.1 km length
2000 foot, 609 meters elevation
Note: (closed for sale) Dry desert track.

Goodyear Proving Grounds - San Angelo, Texas
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/16959711
5.0 miles, 8 km length
2000 foot, 609 meters elevation
Note: Big circle, outer lane looks bad in 2010 photos. Dry desert track.

BF Goodrich Track (former name) - Pecos, Texas
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/16960311
9.0 miles, 14.5 km length
2700 foot, 822 meter elevation
NOTE: Huge circle, This is now a track for academic research, looks in good condition. Dry desert track.

Firestone Test Track - Fort Stockton, Texas
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/16959299
8.0 miles, 12.9 km length
3000 foot, 915 meters elevation
Note: This track looks like it is not flat. Dry desert track.

Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/22/2011 20:29:23
Go to Top of Page

Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2302 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  19:06:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
pssst, delete "barometric pressure" from things that should be held constant when changing altitude.

Larry Lem
Go to Top of Page

hptdelft
New Member

Netherlands
81 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  03:23:41  Show Profile  Visit hptdelft's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I remember one of our movement sciences guys from Amsterdam stating that:
Attempting an hour record at higher altitude is not expected to give a significant increase in speed. This is because both the air drag and the riders oxygen uptake decrease due the lower air density.

Sounds reasonable to me.

PS: we are very interested in a possible hour-record event in the US, especially if it was to take place a few weeks before BM ;-)

-------------------------
Yeah yeah, banana custard.

Edited by - hptdelft on 11/23/2011 03:26:24
Go to Top of Page

25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  04:31:36  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hptdelft

I remember one of our movement sciences guys from Amsterdam stating that:
Attempting an hour record at higher altitude is not expected to give a significant increase in speed. This is because both the air drag and the riders oxygen uptake decrease due the lower air density.

Sounds reasonable to me.

PS: we are very interested in a possible hour-record event in the US, especially if it was to take place a few weeks before BM ;-)

-------------------------
Yeah yeah, banana custard.



. . . . unless the athlete has two or three weeks to acclimatize to the altitude.
Go to Top of Page

Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2302 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  06:45:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A rider's O2 uptake probably won't get back to "sea level" performance just because he spends 2 or 3 weeks getting used to lower density air. Acclimitization usually means becoming more comfortable performing at the maximum level possible for the given air density.

However, if a rider is limited by the strength of his heart in circulating his blood rather than by his lungs in absorbing oxygen (for example, heartrate at 170 bpm while not breathing heavily), then perhaps that rider could perform better at some higher altitude. It is all very individualistic thus everyone's results will vary. But the general trend is as hptdelft stated, drag will drop and lactate threshold power will drop.

Larry Lem
Go to Top of Page

Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2302 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  07:00:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am thankful that folks like Mike search for tracks for potential race events resulting in events such as the ones at Ford Romeo or Nissan Casa Grande.

But we shouldn't focus too much on the altitude of the track. If we get caught up trying to race at the highest altitude just to go faster, we end up focusing on the track to improve speeds instead of the vehicles and riders. For the track, mostly what we want are smooth surfaces.

If high speeds are achieved at low-altitude venues that aren't quite as high as could be achieved at higher-altitude tracks, that doesn't diminish the performances. If necessary, all records can be considered course records.

Larry Lem
Go to Top of Page

randy
recumbent guru

721 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  08:00:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Isn't trying to break the hour-record on a high-altitude track like trying trying to break the 200m record on a downhill?
Go to Top of Page

randy
recumbent guru

721 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  08:02:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
WTH? Never mind, I didn't see Larry's comment.
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  08:30:37  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree that track smoothness is probably the number one priority for a suitable one-hour run. Hence the reason why I invited everyone to Ford right after it was repaved.

A short list of factors that I see as important.
1) Track Smoothness - most important. Lack of undulations in the pavement. I heard that the Opel track had this problem.
2) Large size - 3 miles, 5 KM or larger minimizes the turning, decreases the banking. In the past, records have been set on smaller tracks, but everyone prefers the bigger tracks.
3) Flat Level track, no elevation gain/loss allows rider to focus on a constant effort. Sam had issues with the elevation gain / loss at the Continental Tire Track in Texas (not listed above)
3) Dry air, desert conditions, but not too windy or too hot. We had this problem at Casa Grande with strong winds and heat.
4) Adequate spacing from inside guardrails. Some tracks don't have inside guardrails. Damjan was concerned about this at Ford, hence his reason for wanting to run out in lane 3, instead of lane 1 or lane 2. This track only has guardrails in some sections.
5) Lack of trees and foilage, vegetation gives good visiblity along turns. Desert tracks have this advantage. You can see a rider up ahead if he's down.
6) Lack of animals crossing the track. Deer and wild turkeys can be present on lower elevation tracks like at Ford. They live in the surrounding foilage. A chase car can sound a horn to scare an animal off the track, but only if its following close enough and can see far enough ahead into a bend. Snakes have been seen crossing the desert tracks. Sam almost hit one on his record run in Texas.
7) Altitude Elevation of the Track - is higher elevations better?
8) Cost to Rent the track - expect up to $3000 US dollars for a weekend event at a minimum. Then a $2 million to $5 million typical insurance policy can cost up to another $3000. Then there is timing and equipment costs. Maybe $8000 to $10000 to hold an event.
9) Availability of the track - our schedule at Ford has been very busy in recent years hence the reason why I didn't ask again to host an event in 2010 or 2011. The manager(s) at Ford have been open to the idea of us returning. An automotive test track might be used 24/7 some times of the years with drivers logging many miles for durability testing. Some of the auto racing tracks have an off-season where there is some free time.
10)Proximity to Racer Location - It's hard to have a track that is best for Europe, North America, Australia. If people fly over to Battle Mountain, the closest big track is Las Vegas, which could work out for an event before or after Battle Mountain. The Ford Track is 2000 miles, 3200 km or 3 days drive from Battle Mountain.

Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/23/2011 09:59:11
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  08:36:54  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
In reading Mike Burrows "Bicycle Design", on page 102 he says (not exact words) "A streamlined HPV can gain 1 kph for every 200 meter rise in elevation (for a 200-meter sprint)"

So by this rational, if Francesco rode 91.6 km on the 120 meter Dekra track, could he gain another 3.5 km by going up to 822 meter track in Texas? Is 95 km or 59 miles possible in the One-Hour at Altitude?
Go to Top of Page

Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2302 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  10:35:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A 200 m sprint is a very different effort than a lactate threshold effort.

7) Altitude Elevation of the Track - is higher elevations better?

Again, please stop considering altitude just to go faster. Even if it turns out to be a benefit for hour record type events, it then creates an atmosphere of having to race at high altitudes only to set records and if one is unable to attend travel that particular track, tough luck. It throws an unncecessary factor into the mix.

Instead, we should be focusing on vehicle design and rider capability and the melding the two. The importance of being able to race at a venue, any venue is in the opportunity it represents (being that such events are very rare).

First things first.

Larry Lem
Go to Top of Page

Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2467 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  11:03:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Time to buy one of those altitude chambers. No, not the freeky Michael Jackson one. The ones the triathletes use.
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  13:12:42  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Larry, you make some good points about the altitude not being important. I agree with everyone that the focus should first be on the vehicle design, rather than chasing a "possible" gain by going to altitude.
Go to Top of Page

Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2467 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  13:28:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If Sean and I had said that in 2000, Battle Mountain wouldn't exist. If rejuvenated the sport, as would the Ford race if it could continue. It's not just about the bike, or rider. It's everything.
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  13:42:45  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hptdelft

... PS: we are very interested in a possible hour-record event in the US, especially if it was to take place a few weeks before BM ;-)


Team Delft,

That is an exciting bit of information! It makes me want to organize a Ford event again!

Would you be willing to fly into Detroit say maybe the week before Battle Mountain, then race at the Ford track? I know that the Dekra event has been held recently during August, and its a closer event for you. I would love to have the competitors like yourselves, the Eiviestretto, Cygnus and others come to the Ford track. To make it a worthwhile event I'd probably need to see interest from maybe 5 or more teams. I'd imagine that the University of Toronto could come (5 hours away), as well as several good riders and streamliners located nearby.

I think the week before Battle Mountain might be a good option for teams that are traveling to the US. Ford + Battle Mountain could be a two-week vacation in the US. I know the longer a vacation is, the more the $ cost, and harder to get time off from work and studies, etc

Imagine the following schedule:
Friday August 31, 2012 - Travel Day
Satuday September 1, 2012 FORD TRACK? or Travel Day flying to Detroit
Sunday September 2, 2012 FORD TRACK
Monday September 3, 2012 FORD TRACK This Monday is the LABOR DAY Holiday in the US, so Ford track closed for business but could be open for an Event.
Tuesday September 4, 2012 FORD TRACK? - have to check if I could get the track on this business day, likely it wouldn't be possible so if the event were to be three days, it would be Sat - Sun - Mon.

Wednesday September 5 to Sunday September 9 - TRAVEL DRIVING to Battle Mountain. 2000 miles, 3200 km. This leaves time to sight-see over three to four days. The Toronto team could do it in about 30 hours, as they strive to be very efficient! They made the trip from Toronto (5 hours further than Detroit) to Battle Mountain in 35 hours.

Monday September 10 to Saturday September 15 - BATTLE MOUNTAIN 2012
Sunday September 16 - Fly home from Reno, Salt Lake, San Francisco.

Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/23/2011 14:54:15
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  15:47:26  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Using Warren's HPV Speed Simulator, I got more answers to my question. It seems only about a 1.1 mph (1.8 kph) can be gained by going from Dekra to a 2500 foot track in Texas. You could gain about half of that speed (0.6 mph) by simply waiting till its "hot" like 80 deg F instead of cooler 65 deg F.


Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/27/2011 11:18:14
Go to Top of Page

Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2302 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  21:02:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You should probably reduce power by some amount as well with the reduced air density. By how much is a crapshoot.

Larry Lem
Go to Top of Page

Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2467 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2011 :  21:25:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Merckx and Moser set hour records in Mexico City at 7000 feet(IIRC). They seemed to think it was a good trade off. Plus, with Texas being at only 3000 ft, I doubt it would be that noticeable. You could certainly train for it. If I were Russo, I would jump at a chance to go 1.1 mph faster!
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  06:49:48  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The only streamlined human powered vehicle ride at high-altidude that I know of is in VERY HIGH altitude La Paz, Boliva
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/fastest_list.asp?Action=Update&List=Hour&ID=40

Gerhardt Scheller, the 1983 UCI world champion in kilo sprint on an upright track bicycle rode the streamlined fully enclosed Vector trike 100 KM (62.1 miles) in 1 Hour, 31 minutes, 24 seconds. This was an IHPVA world record. That's an average speed of 40.86 mph / 65.76 kph. If there was a split taken during this ride for the One Hour, that average speed would have made it the 4th fastest streamlined One-Hour. The record states he was riding in La Paz, Bolivia, and various sources list the altitude as
12,000 foot = 3650 meters
11,181 foot = 3408 meters


La Paz is one of the world's highest cities. It is also a rather dangerous place to drive to. Many deaths occur from people driving off the mountain highway on their way to/from the city. I watched this on TV recently. La Paz is where the UCI Standing Start Kilometer record (58.875) was set on their outdoor 333 meter concrete velodrome. I believe that Gerhardt must have rode on a similar velodrome in 1983, although doing that kind of average speed for an hour and half on a velodrome must have been enormously difficult. The tire scrub and G-forces in the turns probably would have reduced his speed perhaps more than the high-altitude gave him gains. I watched the video of Daniel Fenn doing 40 mph on the 250 meter Apeldoorn velodrome in his 3-wheeled velomobile. Looked like fun and almost out of control!

There has been no large racetracks in LaPaz that I know of. It looks to be a crowded small city. La Paz's altitude is so high that I can't even plug it into the HPV calculator (max setting of 5500 foot) to do a comparison with sea-level.

So if a world-class athlete like Gerhardt can ride for 90+ minutes at maximum effort at very high altitude, others can train themselves to do it do.

Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/24/2011 07:19:08
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  06:54:27  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Perhaps the best high-altitude track for a streamlined HPV attempt hasn't even been built yet...
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12459329

This 1 mile, 1610 meter auto racing oval track would be located near Denver, Colorado at an elevation of 5500 feet 1675 meters.

According to the HPV simulator, Francesco could gain 2.7 mph / 4.3 km versus the Dekra track. Perhaps the magical 60 miles in One Hour would be within reach.

I zoomed in on 2010 satellite views of its proposed location, and its still an empty field. If it's ever built, it would have new pavement.

Edited by - Upright Mike on 11/24/2011 07:01:36
Go to Top of Page

Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2467 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  07:58:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now you're talking! Varna-Eivie-Delft showdown!
Go to Top of Page

stgo
Starting Member

12 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  13:16:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys,

quote:
Originally posted by Upright Mike

Gerhardt Scheller, the 1983 UCI world champion in kilo sprint on an upright track bicycle rode the streamlined fully enclosed Vector trike 100 KM (62.1 miles) in 1 Hour, 31 minutes, 24 seconds.



According to my information, the 100km mark has been set at the Mosel river valley in Germany on 9/1/87. Later that month Wolfgang Gronen and Gerhard Scheller went to Bolivia to set records at 500m, 1000m, 1 mile and 5000m.

Best regards
Stefan
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  20:25:21  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stgo

Hi Guys,

quote:
Originally posted by Upright Mike

Gerhardt Scheller, the 1983 UCI world champion in kilo sprint on an upright track bicycle rode the streamlined fully enclosed Vector trike 100 KM (62.1 miles) in 1 Hour, 31 minutes, 24 seconds.



According to my information, the 100km mark has been set at the Mosel river valley in Germany on 9/1/87. Later that month Wolfgang Gronen and Gerhard Scheller went to Bolivia to set records at 500m, 1000m, 1 mile and 5000m.

Best regards
Stefan


Thank you very much for this information Stefan!

If possible could you email any documentation like a magazine article, website regarding this record to myself and the IHPVA records committee? Emails here: http://www.ihpva.org/contact.htm That would be great information to correct a long-standing record on the IHPVA website. It makes sense that only the 500, 1000, 1 mile and 5000 meter were what he attempted in La Paz.
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2011 :  11:32:12  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I made a correction to my table above (weight was 210 lbs, not 220 lbs), and added the 5500 foot location in Colorado, if its ever built.
Go to Top of Page

Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2011 :  15:36:28  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The best track for a "higher" altitude attempt in my opinion would be this one. Its a massive circle. Do a Google Fly-Over video of it, and it seems like you would be going in a straight-line forever.

BF Goodrich Track (former name) - Pecos, Texas
Smithers Transportation Proving Grounds
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/16960311
9.0 miles, 14.5 km length
2700 foot, 822 meter elevation
NOTE: Huge circle, This is now a track for academic research, looks in good condition. Dry desert track

More inf
http://www.gdecarli.it/php/circuit.php?var1=2530&var2=2
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
www.recumbents.com © 2009 www.recumbents.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000