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jnyyz
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
231 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2012 :  07:22:03  Show Profile  Visit jnyyz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
more work on the U of T bike:

http://jnyyz.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/hpv-progress-report/

http://jnyyz.wordpress.com/
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Adam C
recumbent enthusiast

USA
227 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  09:41:32  Show Profile  Visit Adam C's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We are dialing in our rider position.

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jnyyz
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
231 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2012 :  12:11:31  Show Profile  Visit jnyyz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
a few pictures of recent work on the U of T bike are in this blog post.

http://jnyyz.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/out-and-about-on-a-saturday/

http://jnyyz.wordpress.com/
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1974 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2012 :  19:39:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Raymond Gage is close to finishing the shell design for my new bike and he has a few pictures to share. The design concept was inspired by Matt Weaver's Cutting edge bike. Perhaps with improved tools, knowledge and experience we make a very fast bike.

I'm steering away from camera vision and looking to explore the realm of the knee pop design. This will involve some tinkering once the shell is complete.

Matt Weaver's knee pops were made with a latex skin on the exterior and a lycra underneath and I plan to use the same.

We are working to make this bike as small as possible. Raymond was able to model my pedal stroke base on video I sent so we could tighten the pedal box as much a possible. I'm using a 60mm crank spindle and 150mm cranks

We are just about at the stage where water jet cut pieces will be made from files generated from this model. This should improve accuracy and speed the building stage. That is unless someone offers to CNC the whole thing.('')

I sincerely thank Raymond for creating a much more involved and expert model than what I had envisioned. I feel very fortunate that he took me up on my request to make this dream a reality. Though the pictures look effortless, I don't think they can convey the software challenges he faced and the multitude of iterations he explored in pursuit of this design.

Cheers Raymond!






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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2369 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2012 :  20:14:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another contender! This could be an epic year at Battle Mountain.
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Jackrabbit Jimmy
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
257 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  05:56:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sean there doesn't seem to be adequate space for lateral movement of your head for the "Costin Head Bobble".

Jackrabbit Jimmy
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2238 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  07:41:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Varnas have set the standard for minimal head bubble size and Raymond/Sean appear to be following their fine example.

Is Sean wearing knee pads in case the bike tumbles? Are the sharp edges of the knee holes rounded in some manner so they don't cut into the legs in case of an accident? (This is all subjective safety-stuff.....over-protective, under-protective, or just-right.)

Larry Lem
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1974 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  08:20:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good point Larry, I suppose I could move to a neutral non protruding position or pull the leg down that would be most likely to contact something. There may also be a level of protection/aeroshape on my knee. We just haven't worked that out yet. This protrusion is estimated and it will be cut out of the shape as it contacts the knee.

Hopefully we can harness the head bobble energy to power a small bellows that will send fresh air to my face.

Sean

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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  08:20:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So far, in the way of new bikes on the way for this years Battle Mountain we have;

NoCom Streamliner Sean Costin
Unknown bike Rob English
Prone (?) Bike Graeme Obree
Bluenose U of T
Gemini Cal Poly
Modified Lazarus San Jose HPV Team
Aurora Aurora Speedbike Team

I know there have go to be more that I'm not thinking of but this should be an interesting year. Qualifying might eliminate some streamliners this year. Either that or we will be having
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  08:33:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I heard this unknown Delft team might also make an appearance with a new bike. :P
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2238 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  09:33:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I started a PowerPoint file a few weeks ago, gathering side-view pictures. I'm missing views of most but am slowly filling them in as they are received. Warren and Mike may use this info for the website.

Other new vehicles than those mentioned (new for BM, may already exist)
One Good Run Ben Goodall
Sven Jorgensen Vehicle

"old" vehicles
Mephisto - Greg Thomas
Cygnus - crazy Dutch people

plans not known
Varna Tempest - Sam
Varna Battle Mountain - Barbara
new Varnas
Firefly - Don Schroeder
Sparvari - Don Schroeder
Jay Henry Vehicle
Barclay Henry Vehicle

Larry Lem
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2369 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  10:30:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ollinger Bros. Design
Thom Ollinger, pilot
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1974 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  15:38:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I forgot to mention that Arms, head, and lower legs will removed to reduce weight.

Sean
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britCpower
recumbent enthusiast

USA
249 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  16:25:21  Show Profile  Visit britCpower's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Love those renderings Sean.

my blog
http://britcpower.wordpress.com/

Edited by - britCpower on 04/16/2012 16:27:22
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2369 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2012 :  21:38:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we need BritcPower in a liner!
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3364 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  07:40:43  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I got to work more on the riders info page ....
Barclay and Jay Henry contacted me to say they will be there with their vehicles.
Ben Goodall contacted me to say TriSled is bringing both the new bike pictured and a trike
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2369 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  10:26:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It looks like it's going to be a Battle Royale just to qualify. Run what you brung, and hope you brung enough!
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  10:46:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am curious to see how Sean's new liner will perform. We (Todd mostly) think that bubbles are the worst aerodynamic issue with the bikes, and we eliminated the head bubble for the new bike. The wheel fairings cannot be eliminated, but we try to minimize their impact.

Sean's bike will have the head bubble and knee protrusions...I personally do not like the design, and i think it's performance will be a good validation as to whether bubbles are as detrimental as we think they are. The bike will definitely be very small relative to it's rider, and given Sean's experience, he will probably get the most out of the bike.

What material will you use for the knee covers, and how will you handle the surface transition between the elastic and the (i hope) rigid fairing?

Victor
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2238 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  12:14:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"i think it's performance will be a good validation as to whether bubbles are as detrimental as we think they are"

Sample of 1. May or may not be statistically significant. If he goes fast, we'll say "I guess that works fine". If he goes slow, will we automatically say that knee and head bubbles are a bad idea? What if other aspects of the design or build caused the bike to be slow? What if he has the flu all week, his power is at 50% and doesn't tell anybody?

The same can be said of the limited number of prone position bike entries.

If we had thousands of entries and designs, we could draw a lot more convincing conclusions.

Larry Lem
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  12:36:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
well, it is the data we have. I think Sean is a good enough rider to be able to tell whether this bike is faster than other streamliners. Also, if he uses power meters, we can definitely draw some conclusions.
If an unknown person with no experience would have built that bike and then went slow, the conclusions wouldnt be very strong. However, if a strong rider with experience (Sean) will build it and then go slow, the conclusions are more clear.

I am not trying to argue that a sample of 1 is a good statistical group, just that, given that we have a sample of only 1, we can still draw some good conclusions given the rider.

Sean can also do some roll tests where he keeps the knees in different positions and see whether it makes a difference.
Victor
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2238 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  13:50:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know if Matt Weaver designed the flexible knee bubbles on purpose or whether they were a fix for insufficient knee space. I think it is interesting that Sean is trying this.

I wonder what kind of power meter Sean could use. He's using a custom narrow bb and Odyssey Euro Black Widow 150 mm cranks, so SRM and Quark cannot be used. Look Keo Power pedals require 170 mm arms or longer. Garmin Vector and Brim Bros. aren't on the market yet. I think he's using a 700C wheel, but PowerTaps are no good above 57 mph.
I have not determined how I'll be able to measure power this year as well.

Larry Lem
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  14:16:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wait, what? The powertaps are useless at high speed?! damn....i was really hoping to use a hub at BM and for tire testing...
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3364 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  14:19:44  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Matt Weaver put bubbles on his original Cutting Edge from 1989-1990 because the shell was designed for a linear drive, then when he went to a rotary crank design he needed more room for his knees.

Often i wonder how much the butt bubbles on the Norus slow it down, or do they? for Sean, its an interesting tradeoff to make a smaller overall shell, which is smaller with the bubbles.

Victor - I've tried to classify many bikes on my fastest lists by either "head bubble canopy" or "integral canopy = no bubble". Hopefully one day someone could see this as valuable. I agree, even wih my limited knowledge that bubbles don't help the aerodynamics. Its interesting that Matt Weaver's original Kyle Edge went 78 mph with him as a 31 year old rider in his prime with no bubble. Now the Wedge, has only managed to go 73+ mph with a head bubble. The Wedge built by Ben and Tri-Sled was derived from cut-down molds of the Kyle Edge, which made it a bit more pointy. Eric Ware is a fine strong rider, could he go faster with no bubble?
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1974 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  20:17:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure that Matt had intended on knee pops. Even if he completed his linear drive, his knees would still probably have gone out of his fairing. The Cutting Edge was a very fast bike in it's day and worthy of further refinement of the idea. More information on the design is available in the HUMAN Power Archive http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/38-v11n3-1994.pdf It starts at page 10.

I see this bike as a basic improvement on the CE which had both heel pops and Knee pops. I want to ride this bike in the HPRA series, so I don't want to be messing with cameras. What will be great is that I can use the same bike as I ride unfaired!

I do not think that this bike and me will set a new world record in the 200M this year. It will be a great accomplishment and a fun challenge just to get it race worthy. I will continue to work on tweaking it further and we'll see how it goes. There's always something to improve. I'm interested in the concept of an efficient morphing shape. I think that the head bubble behind the knee pop may provide a mitigating effect by re pressurizing the turbulent flow off the knees. 1+1 = 1.5? I hope I'm right. Part of the fun is that no one really knows.

I have a powertap which will be valuable for testing at lower speeds, but I'm going to have put on a Capreo Hub if I plan to go over 70mph.

The knees might actually be slightly closer together than shown. I just realized today that the measurements on knee location were taken before I went to the narrower BB.







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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2238 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2012 :  21:09:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For now, I aspire to get my CdA down to 0.015 square meters ala Eiviestretto. The bubble for the rear wheel makes me laugh, but what an achievement. So little power would be needed to go "fast" down 305 with that CdA.

Larry Lem
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