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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2011 :  22:03:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I was tossing around ridiculous ideas for ASME bikes the other day and I happened upon a camera bike of sorts. Out of curiosity I was wondering what your opinions were in the matter. Namely if it would even be feasible to have an ASME bike be designed with that. I mean technically it's within the rules right? So why not?

Ross Jensen
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  18:24:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Camera bikes have many issues that ensue with them...

Typically if your doing a camera bike it's so you can lay your rider down flat on their back, in the asme races though you need to be able to handle at low speeds, and it is nearly impossible to handle a bike a low speeds without sitting up to to some degree. Also, you have the issue of camera lag and to what degree your visibility is.
You basically give up any handling capabilities for a bike that may have ridiculously good aero, but I don't think our tracks are big enough for that to help to that degree. especially w/ on campus courses.

But do what you want because without someone else to try something everyone else called crazy nothing amazing could be created...
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teubner
recumbent guru

783 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  18:42:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've thought a rear camera would be great for a streamliner where you can't turn your head around and you don't want mirror aero drag.
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2247 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  20:37:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why not?

Time.

Larry Lem
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  23:55:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that the shape will not be worth the effort. Vortex was more aerodynamic than even the Indy ASME track was able to deal with. We were braking very often to deal with traffic, turns, bumps, etc. The sprint event would probably benefit from a lighter bike than even more aero.

Rearview camera however is probably a good idea, given that the complexity of the camera system is dealt with.

Victor
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  07:36:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To tell you the truth I was thinking more of a camera trike than anything. Retains stability (as much as a trike would have) And reduces the size. Although I do agree with you victor that a lighter bike would be of more benefit as the courses do seem to be more like a criterium than anything else.
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  07:44:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Although that does bring up a question of what the viability of a trike would be. We all know that the speed bikes have ruled the roost but with the implementation of the grocery rules as well as some of the other design criteria scoring, would it make more sense to have a trike? There are designs such as a leaning trike (rose hulman) as well as many other leaning and/or tilting designs that corner much better than the standard trike? Could they be the next step to take?
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  11:16:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good point about the grocery area.
We have analyzed the times from our last race to see where the time is spent. Stopping the bike, getting out and securing the groceries were the biggest time sinks. IF the trike will allow to get in and out faster and stop the bike sooner, it might make sense. However, a leaning trike doesnt seem to add much more fuctionality than a well designed landing gear.

The other place where a trike can save time is crashes. Assuming a trike doesnt crash, it would save couple of minutes in the speed endurance race. We crashed about 6 times i believe during the speed endurance race, costing us probably 5 min in total. I argue however that we only crashed because we exceeded the grip available. A trike would have the same issues if it travels at the same speed. Given that a bike can lean at 45 deg, it means it can achieve a side loading of 1g. The bike (or trike) tires are not much better than that, so a trike can probably achieve 1g lateral as well, unless it tips over.

To me, it seems that better tire control is the key to go faster in the ASME races. That means better braking and better suspension, such that the tire stays in contact with the road continuously. Good handling is the most important feature the bike must have, such that the rider pushes it without crashing. Lightweight bikes can also accelerate faster, giving them even more advantage. A trike might be better in some specific circumstances, such as wind or slalom, but overall i dont see a reason for it to be faster.

victor
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raymondg
recumbent guru

864 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  12:47:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've crewed on two camera bike teams and run my own camera trike. At record events though. My biggest take away is that you have to put the effort into the camera system, as much as any other system on the vehicle. If you do this they are reliable, and allow you to do things that just aren't possible with a transparency. If you leave it to the last minute and/or treat it as an afterthought, you will have problems that will impact your race. For ASME style racing it might be handy to improve situation awareness by adding side and/or rear facing cameras. Even though it is an AS"ME" event doesn't mean you couldn't get some EE or CompE types involved and come up with a really sweet heads up style video system with nice data overlays from a bunch of sensors...sorry, just day dreaming there for a moment. That would help advance the sport though.

-Raymond
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  14:42:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The question is, Victor, could the falls have been fixed with a little more rider experience in the bike? From my own experiences with different sorts of bikes, you can recover from something like that if you know the bike well enough. Although I will admit that with the weather as it was, you probably couldn't have done anything different to fix it. But then again, what about rain specific tires? I know they exist for more standard sizes but what about 20 inch wheels?
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Ross Jensen
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  19:41:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Typically if you want to save a slide from my MTB experience you want to be able and slide your body weight over the tires then you will stay upright until the tires grip again, this action is pretty limited by the faring restrictions. Do you think a high racers (14-18in) slower leaning/falling would possibly allow a rider to recover easier compared to when the rider is only 6-12 in off the ground? I do think rider ability in handling has a huge impact as some of our best years have been due to riders ability to handle adverse conditions quickly and efficiently; IE. being able to slip by slow riders in tight corners that would be otherwise impossible. I also think front steering rotation able to turn a higher degree would solve a lot of low speed incidents for many bikes with a full fairing.

quote:
Originally posted by W Hilgenberg

The question is, Victor, could the falls have been fixed with a little more rider experience in the bike? From my own experiences with different sorts of bikes, you can recover from something like that if you know the bike well enough. Although I will admit that with the weather as it was, you probably couldn't have done anything different to fix it. But then again, what about rain specific tires? I know they exist for more standard sizes but what about 20 inch wheels?


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Ross Jensen
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  19:51:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really don't think treaded bike tires are useful in the rain, this is what i'm assuming a rain specific tires. Treads were put on flat car tires to give the water a place to escape but in the case of bike tires there is no where near the amount of area on the ground and it forms an ellipse thus forcing all water out. I do believe it is impossible to hydroplane a road bike tire but I would think a slightly wider really sticky 25mm tire at a lower pressure would do the trick.
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Ross Jensen
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  19:53:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Would there be any merit in downward sloping wings => /0\ maybe 6-8 in long to give downforce to the bike in corners victor? maybe they articulate more downforce with steering?? IDK...
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  19:54:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure whether rain tires would have helped....they dont seem to help on my road bike.

Since we rode the bike very little before the competition, it is probably true that we would have fallen less have we actually ridden the bike. We also want to experiment with some lean angle indicators, that can make the rider aware of the lean angle, and can be adjusted depending on conditions.

So i think the solution is to have a very well handling bike, that tells the rider how much it can push it, and finish it earlier enough to train with it...I dont think any single tech solution will solve that.

Victor
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  20:02:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ross, i think the last thing you want is something sticking out of the bike that can get broken/tangled by other bikes. The courses are rather tight and we had quite a few bike-to-bike interaction even at Indi, we bumped into Rose-Hulman a few times when we were both cutting the apexes.

I dont think these races are yet at the level where downforce can work. With human power, any drag is bad, and downforce creates quite a lot of drag. Simplicity is key, and any system added to the bike must be simple and reliable, I think that all the landing gear designs we saw at Indi were a good example of that, the simplest were the best, and any complication only added weight and reliability issues.

Victor
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  08:04:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In regards to the addition of wings to provide vertical downforce in corners, It has been tried before in MotoGP. It was also abandoned after testing as it was seen to provide little to no effect on cornering grip and simply added unnecessary complexity. And they're going around 100 miles per hour in some corners so I would believe that they wouldn't really work with us. Although I will admit I did think of that too. . .

And Victor, would a lean angle indicator really be all that necessary? I would think that if you are racing and going through a corner you wouldn't really ever look at it. It would just be a distraction.
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LongJohn
recumbent guru

Netherlands
567 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  10:25:51  Show Profile  Visit LongJohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Most two wheel bikes have a lean angle indicator installed from stock: it's called the horizon!

;-)

Thomas
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  10:34:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thats not why i mean. I am thinking of a piece of flexible material, like steel, that touches the ground at a certain lean angle. This would vibrate, and alert the rider that they are exceeding the predetermined max lean angle. That can be changed depending on conditions.

For a less experience rider, like most ASME riders, i think this would make it easier to keep the bike under control during fast turns, where they can control the lean.

Victor
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LongJohn
recumbent guru

Netherlands
567 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  10:43:50  Show Profile  Visit LongJohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ahhhh, something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_feeler

Thomas
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  10:49:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes pretty much! I am thinking of something loud and flexible, with some decent aero shape. The angle or length should be changable. I remember a number of times i was surprised by rubbing the fairing on ACE, which had only 40deg lean angle. It alerted me that i was leaning too far. The problem is that the fairing is flexible, so if it touches it automatically unloads the front wheel, which generally means a crash. Such a device would not unload the wheels, but just alert the rider. For rainy conditions, one can calculate or measure the tire max coefficient of friction, and thus know the max lean angle the bike can sustain and set the feeler there.
An experienced recumbent rider would probably not need it, but for students racing their first machine, it might be very useful...

Victor
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
283 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  12:58:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think I have ever leaned far enough to rub a fairing. I guess I just haven't been going fast enough. Although I will say that the feeler would be a good idea for rider training. They'd look funny though. :( But I guess that doesn't really matter if you go fast. What do you do for your new rider training?
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  13:51:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It depends on the lean angle built in....if the lean angle possible is 50deg or something like that, it is probably impossible to rub the fairing before the front wheel wipes off.

For pilot training we have 2 recumbents, one we built and a ready built one. the one we built we try to make it as similar as possible to that year's bike.

We have a little alleyway with a small slope we use to train the riders with no experience. we also have a running track close by where we go to train sometimes.
Last year and hopefully this year we went to a local airport to test it on the 2.5km runway. This lets us take it to higher speeds.

Most training actually takes place during the races, we ride a lot at ASME before and after the official races, and we go to the Waterford and the Chicago races. This lets most riders race as much as possible at high speed.

Around Toronto there are few places where we can take a streamliner anywhere close to top speed...

Victor
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teubner
recumbent guru

783 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  14:38:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Training for BM, we went to a course with higher slopes than BM, thus allowing higher speeds, to be certain that no weird handling/chassis/geartrain things happened at speed. We were able to find and minimize a number of minor problems.
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Ross Jensen
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  15:01:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We were scraping fairing whilst cornering in siren that's a good 50-55 deg but we didn't slide out cause we practiced handling to make our corners smooth as possible; changing lines at speed will cause the wheel to take on too much additional side load or will send you into a harder lean angle past what the bike can handle. This year we had a rider leaning so far into a low speed corner he put his hand down and kept on riding
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Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
352 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  23:12:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We most definitely train people not to put their hands out while leaning, although we do that sometimes by mistake.

It is also why i believe that a tub bike is better for newer riders. They can crash it as much as they want and there are very little issues. Definitively we prefer to crash on the side than injure someone's arm...

Victor
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purplepeopledesign
recumbent guru

Canada
584 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2011 :  07:34:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the race is designed for cornering than top speed, it's better to give up some aerodynamics and allow your machine to lean past the point of tire grip. Any pilot worth their salt will have the natural talent (and skill) to take the vehicle near skid pad limits.... and that means contact with low hanging parts... and a crash. While your driver can always back it off in the corners, having to do so limits their ability to make a safe pass and forces them to make different braking decisions and the resulting increase in lap times is much more significant than might first appear on paper.

IOW, on a twisty track, with straightaway runs placing vehicles within lengths of each other, the machine that can out corner and out brake can take the inside line going into a turn and make a pass. Happens all the time in auto racing, and at the Aussio velo races.

:)ensen.

Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it.

Video of my trike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSLRD_2vzc
Photos of my trike
http://www.flickr.com/photos/purplepeople/
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