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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2010 :  20:00:56  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm working on this thing again. Hopefully it will be done and tweaked for BM 2011.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/barracuda/cudawsubframe3.htm

-Warren.

warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2010 :  09:46:18  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Last weekend I made good progress. I was able to get the super narrow BB drivetrain to shift happily between 4 gears, and it looks like 5 may be possible, though the chain angle starts getting pretty large. This week I will install the subframe in the 'liner to test for knee clearance.

-Warren.
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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2011 :  08:13:27  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had another productive day of work on the drivetrain. It now has chain management, and I think it's actually time to bolt it into the 'liner and see how it works around the block. I still need to see if I can cram another gear it there to being it up to an amazing five gears!

Currently it's set up for 70MPH top end, so I need to de-tune it a bit for 40MPH top end if I want to have any chance of climbing the hill at the Waterford Hills race track in Michigan.

The Michigan HPRA races are in two weeks!

-Warren.
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Dana Barlow
recumbent enthusiast

322 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2011 :  15:39:45  Show Profile  Visit Dana Barlow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Why isn't it EZ to just put a smaller main ring on cranks and adjust chain? to get 40mph or so top end gearing? for roadracing.would clear tire that way too in hard turn.

Dana
Team Strange
"Strange One","Too Strange","Strange Try"
Miami Fla.

Edited by - Dana Barlow on 06/01/2011 15:42:06
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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2011 :  17:18:29  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm doing that too, but I also want the widest range of gearing possible so I can start, climb hills , AND go 40 MPH...

It doesn't like 5 gears so I'm going back to 4

Edited by - warren on 06/02/2011 17:19:26
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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2012 :  13:03:29  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So, last year I installed the V3 drivetrain and it did not fit easily and it did not fit straight, so I got disgusted and parked the Cuda-W in the back of garage. I glared at it occasionally and tried not to drop anything heavy on it. The air leaked out of the tires and it acquired a nice patina of dust.

Last week I had a week off and decided to brush the dust off of the bike and resurrect the V2 Rohloff drivetrain. A new fork was built to replace the one that kept bending and the subframe was re-integrated with the bike.

I took it for a ride around the block a couple times and it seems to be working and didn't make me bleed so I will probably bring it to some HPRA races to see if it behaves. It won't be any faster than it was, but hopefully will be more reliable.

-Warren.
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1902 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2012 :  18:25:36  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Warren,

Why don't you do something like this, with a straight chain line and reverse fork or would your heal hit the derailleur and axle? It would move the mid drive forward. I'm having problems getting motivated on some stuff too,I think its work related..



C:
Tony Levand
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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
279 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  15:25:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How much room is in the nose of the fairing ahead of the cranks? Have a step up primary drive, on the left side to second bottom bracket ahead of the cranks,; on the right side of the second bottom bracket a double or triple chain ring with a front derailleur, the chain via an idler to front wheel with a cassette with a rear derailleur. No clearance or chain alignment issues, all the gear range you could want, just a little more chain. Orange Varna was set up this way.
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  16:59:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oddly enough, that is what I am doing. The nose volume is always a bunch of space that is just empty and not being used so if you put something up there, it can help to shift your CG forward as well which should help handling a little bit. It also has the benefit of shrinking down the width of the drivetrain as it goes between your knees.





Where the derailleur position is going to be ;
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Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1209 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  18:24:31  Show Profile  Visit Jeff Wills's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by W Hilgenberg

Oddly enough, that is what I am doing. The nose volume is always a bunch of space that is just empty and not being used so if you put something up there, it can help to shift your CG forward as well which should help handling a little bit. It also has the benefit of shrinking down the width of the drivetrain as it goes between your knees.



Oddly enough (squared), I've been thinking about the same configuration for the Cuda-W-2. As it is, the chainline (to the rear wheel) is a mess, and I'm probably going to redo everything to make it right anyway.

IMO, it would be better to box the frame around all the cogs (right and left side) and bias the cassette inboard. That will give you a better chainline, especially in the higher gears. Making the jackshaft out of very narrow hub would seem to be simpler than putting an adapter on a narrow bottom bracket.

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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  18:45:27  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Tony: I don't see how that would improve what I have and yes, narrow BB so my heels would probably hit fork, derailleure, etc.

Pugzat: If the whole top came off that would be a possibility. There is access to the nose but it's a small hole way up in the front there. It would be difficult.

W Hilgenberg: That looks like a great way to keep those pointy gears away from your knees. I will be interested to hear how it turns out.

Jeff: Good luck with the mods, I agree, the chainline on that bike needed some work.

-Warren.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2467 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  18:57:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
W.H. that seems like a pretty good idea. I don't think you want more weight in the front, as the front wheel is being overloaded already. But, I don't think the weight of that drive will hurt. You have a great point about appreciating space between the knees. Just remember that Warrens liner has crazy narrow Q. When you only have 1.25" between your cranks it narrows your options!
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2302 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  20:23:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Will's drivetrain looks to be like the Missouri S&T design from 2 years ago.

Larry Lem
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W Hilgenberg
recumbent enthusiast

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2012 :  22:06:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wills

IMO, it would be better to box the frame around all the cogs (right and left side) and bias the cassette inboard. That will give you a better chainline, especially in the higher gears. Making the jackshaft out of very narrow hub would seem to be simpler than putting an adapter on a narrow bottom bracket.



I fully agree with you in that it would give you a better chainline and reduce the size even more but for this iteration I wanted something that was a little simpler. Another thing is that by boxing the cassette section of a subframe makes it significantly weaker when you consider that there is a forward mount ahead of the cassette. It would require a much more complicated structure for it to be stiff enough (I think. I hadn't fully considered it.) For my version I also machined my own jackshaft for the cassette so I could have it as an entirely removable piece. http://auroraspeedbike.blogspot.com/2012/03/jackshaft-progress.html


quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Just remember that Warrens liner has crazy narrow Q. When you only have 1.25" between your cranks it narrows your options!


The spacing between the crank and the left-side drive is rather narrow even with a standard narrow bottom bracket. In order to reduce the q-factor on the next iteration, I will probably have to rebuild the frame completely. But I still have to build this one first.


quote:
Originally posted by Larry Lem

Will's drivetrain looks to be like the Missouri S&T design from 2 years ago.


That would be because I borrowed the idea from them and Altair. I just modified it so I wouldn't be running a hub up front. It's a little bit more elegant design that way with a bit more adjustability for the chainline. Plus then I get to practice with the CNC machines here!

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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
279 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2012 :  04:23:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You can't suck and blow at the same time. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In a perfect world you wouldn't need vise-grips, files, a hammer and a saws-all. Observations of the 3 dimensional existence.
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Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1209 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2012 :  12:31:57  Show Profile  Visit Jeff Wills's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PUGZCAT

You can't suck and blow at the same time. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In a perfect world you wouldn't need vise-grips, files, a hammer and a saws-all. Observations of the 3 dimensional existence.



Huh?

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Jeff Wills
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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
279 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  04:48:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Everyone has seen Ben Goodall's new low Q drive system. A lot like the system I was talking about minus the front derailleur.
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Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1209 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  08:16:52  Show Profile  Visit Jeff Wills's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PUGZCAT

Everyone has seen Ben Goodall's new low Q drive system. A lot like the system I was talking about minus the front derailleur.



Well, geez... you didn't say any of that in your previous post!

Yes, Ben's drivetrain is exactly what I'd like to try for my bike:



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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2012 :  19:24:45  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Around the block testing of the bike went well, so I am going to run it at this year's Northbrook velodrome races. I have not raced it since 2010, so it should be interesting. I'm making a front fairing for the bike to cover the large wheel hole. I laid plastic wrap over the wheel area to get a nice shape and protect the paint, then laid up 2 layers of fiberglass over the plastic. I would have liked the shape to be a bit pointier in the front and back but it should be much better than the big hole.



After I looked at this I saw I should have added some foam to the tire to space it away from the fairing, so I trashed that layup, added foam then re-laid up fiberglass and epoxy.

Here's the wheel fairing sitting on top of the fairing, showing the hole for the front wheel.



To arrive at that hole shape, I taped it in place then took a couple trips around the block, trimming it so it did not rub the wheel or ground. I sprayed it with primer, you can see it's not perfect. After a couple spray/sand cycles it will be "good enough". I will tape it in place for the big Northbrook velodrome race next week.

-Warren.


Edited by - warren on 07/08/2012 19:26:37
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1902 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2012 :  04:39:43  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I made a loop from 1/8 inch music wire, used hose clamps and tubing to connect it to the fork, the tubing is like a fork extension, the loop fits around the tire and wheel just inside the fairing opening. I glued poly foam to the wire and it seals the opening, but allows steering.It already has several hundred street miles on it. Being a street bike, the fairing needs to open to allow sharp turns and now the wire pushes the fairing open instead of the tire rubbing. It made the fairing a lot hotter inside, though, unrideable in this 90+ weather.. Thanks for reminding me, Warren, I'll have to start training for the races, been slacking in this hot weather...



C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 07/09/2012 05:10:33
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2012 :  19:55:44  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It will be awesome to see Warren and Tony back on the track in their very fast liners! My liner will stay at home (it still needs some fixin). I'm focused on Stock racing for right now.
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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2012 :  07:18:58  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
With the repaired Rolhoff drivetrain and new front wheel fairing, the Cuda-w performed well. Here it is at the Iowa races a couple months ago.



I still feel that standard gears would be faster.

I have cut apart the V3 drivetrain to rebuild it again. shown here are the major components, including the lefty drive wheel.



Now I just need some quality time to build a jig I can use to ensure that this new drivetrain have the same geometry as the existing one.

-Warren.
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warren
human power expert

USA
4902 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2012 :  17:04:38  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
After building a jig, spending much time grinding, tack brazing, and doing several test fits, I once again have something resembling a front subframe. The geometry is now the same as my old Rohloff subframe.



The next step is to build the crossover drivetrain.

-Warren
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2467 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2012 :  17:59:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking good. Gonna havr a mid drive cassette? Tell us again how fun it is building around a 67mm bottom bracket spindle.
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1978 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2012 :  20:34:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If it weren't for the garage door hinges in the background, I'd say this looks like some kind of modern sculpture display.

Drive train #4 by Warren Beauchamp

Evokes a deep resonance from Marcel Duchamp's "Bicycle Wheel"



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Aure
Starting Member

France
14 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2012 :  23:54:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny that this modern art is at the moment near to my house !
Promise I will take a picture of it with me beside :D
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