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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
279 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  07:03:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I mounted an old school motorcycle windjammer on welded on brackets on a bmx handlebar on the first swingbike I built. It worked out quite nicely as did the swingbike. Swingbikes work great for winter riding as the back wheel is steered so you can climb out of ruts instead of going down. An added plus was in a tail wind the bike could be dogged tracked out and windjammer used as a sail. It was a self centering design. Probably still some pictures on Bob Hubbard's Swingbike site.
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1899 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  11:20:11  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would think the last thing you want is front wheel drive on ice.

C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 12/15/2011 11:20:23
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harv
recumbent enthusiast

339 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  12:17:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I lived in Massachusetts (~1969) I raced in an ice gymkhana with my SAAB 96 two stroke. I only tried it once and I finished 4th behind 3 guys who drove to MA from Vermont and Maine to do their 2 laps. All the VWs sucked at ice racing. I don't understand Tony's point about front wheel drive and ice.
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mhelander
recumbent enthusiast

Finland
352 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  13:41:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem with front drive drive in ice is stability. If bike's 2-wheeler, and front slips, you're handful to keep your direction.

I can easily get slippage on snow with my rwd lowracer, even with threaded tires. In straights and uphills, even in 40+ kph speeds. On the other hand, it's great pedaling exorcise to get it right and smooth...

I tried last winter ride lowracer having slicks in front and rear. Rear slips all the time, and stability is easily lost cause rear slips 1st, then you correct and front slips too, game over and down you go. Or ditch. That was fixed with U.S.S.R built threaded tubular in rear, nowadays equivalent tires are available for cyclocross clincher rims.

Now I have Maxxis DTH 451 @ front and same tubular @ rear. Works well enough.

Cheers,
-Mika
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1899 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  14:28:19  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Harv hasn't ridden a bike on ice before. Front wheel slips and down you go. Rear wheel slips and you do a doughnut. Best to have an upright, so you can put your leg down to make a stable tripod while skidding, not to mention splashing from passing cars.. I haven't tried studded tires. Better to have the front tire studded than the back. Ice ruts are always bad.

C:
Tony Levand
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2465 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  15:33:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mika is the first person I have heard of who could ride a bent on snow and ice. Even ride fast. I even hit some mud and down I go. Maybe I should quit thrashing around. Or, move to where Mika lives for practice.
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mhelander
recumbent enthusiast

Finland
352 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2011 :  22:47:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thom, I've had only one training leg this week. It was @ Monday when we had -7 centigrade and snow in ground. Nice riding weather, MUP maintenance was about adequate.

After that, again, temp's cycling above freezing. No snow in ground, just slippery ice. Hadn't had chances to ride at all. Last winter was much, much better.

But what comes to riding in slippery surfaces, it's skill that can be learned. I did my pre-learning in -90's commuting my 16 km distance using all-race Tri-DF, with aero bars slicks and all. Every fall went down couple of times to remind my reflexes what's required to ride in snow & ice.

Especially good point is that when learned it boosts confident to race in summer and all weather conditions. It's the reflexes...

Cheers,
-Mika
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harv
recumbent enthusiast

339 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  03:16:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony, I have ridden a bike on ice; not bent or front wheel drive, though. I wasn't always old and fat and rode pretty much all year. Rode up a sheet of ice trail to Fermi Lab. On the way back down I was passed by my buddy's bike, then my buddy, then I went down and my bike and I raced each other in an epic slidefest.
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Tom Schneider
New Member

59 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  03:40:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Harv quote:
When I lived in Massachusetts (~1969) I raced in an ice gymkhana with my SAAB 96 two stroke. I only tried it once and I finished 4th behind 3 guys who drove to MA from Vermont and Maine to do their 2 laps. All the VWs sucked at ice racing. I don't understand Tony's point about front wheel drive and ice.

I did a few ice gymkanas with a turbo Corvair in Minnesota. The Porsches and turbo Corvair were faster when the ice was sticky enough, over 80 mph on straights, but when conditions were worse the front wheel drives ruled. The 4 wheels were good to stay right side up. Two wheels would be tough.

Edited by - Tom Schneider on 12/16/2011 03:43:12
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1899 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  05:47:54  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The problem with riding a bent on ice is once you slip, you fall down. I am looking at a studded commuting tire for the front this season, 700x32 72 studs or 700x35 106 studs. The skinner tire will go through deep snow easier and faster on pavement, the wider one would get better traction.




C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 12/16/2011 05:49:19
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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
279 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2011 :  17:18:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let me clarify, a swingbike is rear wheel drive, upright bicycle, front wheel steered and rear wheel steered with the seat mounted on the steerer tube of the rear forks with the bottom bracket attached in front of the rear wheel.
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1899 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2011 :  05:35:56  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OH, I see this one has no boom boom, was confused with swing boom bike. Tell us more.


The perfect ice bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goPpGMyqqu8&feature=related

C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 12/17/2011 05:49:33
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PUGZCAT
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
279 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2011 :  07:23:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One wheel drive granny trikes haven't got enough traction with rubber only tires to go any where on ice other than doing donuts. Two wheel drive delta trikes work well. I built an upright BMX style tadpole with 20 inch front wheels and a 16 inch back wheel with 13 inch chainstays that had good traction on ice, but it pretty much had to take corner on pavement up on two, banking like a bike, because there wasn't enough weight on the two front wheels. It was a real crowd pleaser in parades as it looked squirrelly but was really easy to ride. My brother and I built a two wheel drive upright delta trike using 26 inch wheels all around custom 1 1/2 inch square tube rear section with a jackshaft 18 inches behind the bottom bracket and two loops of chain forward to freewheels on the back wheels. It had effectively 11 inch chainstays and was a wheelie machine using a 4 inch castor on a steel suspension seat post as wheelie bar. Slowest wheel was always driven so it wanted to track straight with the front wheel up. Never tried it on ice as it was built on request for a 10 year old autistic boy down the street from brother, his mom wanted a trike that would be hard to tip. The rims could be seen flexing and the spoke nipples on the rims could be heard "pinging in protest" when my brother and I were doing tight turn tests, but wouldn't lift a back wheel.
Swingbikes were invented in Utah around 1972, Donny Osmond's little brother was the spokes kid for the company which lasted to around 1978. Swingbikes are still popular with high rise muscle bicycle collectors.
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3463 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2011 :  08:54:41  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedy

Terminator had trouble with the wind on the velodrome, got blown into the grass, stuck the front wheel and flipped gaining a mild concussion in the process.
A friend of my brother Stewart ... can't recall his name.
Last time the bike was used.

quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Wasn't Terminator the fastest faired upright at the Milwaukee IHPVA championships? I have a picture here, somewhere...




From my Fastest Lists...http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/fastest_list.asp?Action=Update&List=Fastest&ID=597
Ron Elder went 49.88 mph on the Terminator at the 1989 IHPSC in Michigan. I managed a measly 32.5 mph on my upright with Zzipper fairing at that same championships - of course I was only a 14-year old "kid" too!
At the 1991 IHPSC in Milwaukee, I see Anthony Peder went 50.35 mph for 4th place on a fully-faired Moulton upright. I remember an accident with a full-faired upright where a guy broke his collarbone on the velodrome - Speedy, was that Ron?

Edited by - Upright Mike on 12/17/2011 10:44:45
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Upright Dave
New Member

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2011 :  19:00:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd like to see a picture of this "terminator". Not may pictures around of the upright fairing bikes that were fast.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
2465 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2011 :  06:56:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's remember that not only were fully faired uprights slower than faired recumbents, they weren't much more practical, and were even worse in crosswinds. And they still have the comfort, headfirst, high off the ground issues of a DF.
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
759 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2011 :  09:37:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
correct Ron Elder
forgot about the collar bone
pretty sure it was the concussion that kicked in "mothers high anxiety rule" with his wife banning him from the bike and HPV competitions


quote:
Originally posted by Upright Mike

quote:
Originally posted by Speedy

Terminator had trouble with the wind on the velodrome, got blown into the grass, stuck the front wheel and flipped gaining a mild concussion in the process.
A friend of my brother Stewart ... can't recall his name.
Last time the bike was used.

quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Wasn't Terminator the fastest faired upright at the Milwaukee IHPVA championships? I have a picture here, somewhere...




From my Fastest Lists...http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/fastest_list.asp?Action=Update&List=Fastest&ID=597
Ron Elder went 49.88 mph on the Terminator at the 1989 IHPSC in Michigan. I managed a measly 32.5 mph on my upright with Zzipper fairing at that same championships - of course I was only a 14-year old "kid" too!
At the 1991 IHPSC in Milwaukee, I see Anthony Peder went 50.35 mph for 4th place on a fully-faired Moulton upright. I remember an accident with a full-faired upright where a guy broke his collarbone on the velodrome - Speedy, was that Ron?

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Upright Dave
New Member

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2011 :  22:26:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Getting closer on my wheel/seat tube frame fairing. I didn't like the color so I stripped the paint off. I also had to add more material as I made an error. Paint next. This time black. Basically it bolts onto the brake stud and has a removable roll pin at the bottom.




Now painted! Matte Black, like my front wheel Hybrid-Toroidal bolt-on rim fairings.:





Edited by - Upright Dave on 10/28/2012 16:26:01
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1899 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  14:55:56  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote


C:
Tony Levand
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harv
recumbent enthusiast

339 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2011 :  14:41:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I see the thread topic, I think about Allan Abbott and John Howard and their motorized fairings. ~120 and ~150 mph.
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Upright Dave
New Member

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2012 :  16:45:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All done. The motor needs a tune up.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/fairingcrazy.jpg/]
[/URL]

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WillStewart
Starting Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  11:28:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike, this is quite interesting from a number of perspectives. Have you considered productizing this for commuters, especially for winter comfort? Distance can be an issue with some commuters, and reducing the energy required can add miles to a commuter's distance. I realize this is focused on racing, but a kit could come with handbars (perhaps even with brake handles as options).
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purplepeopledesign
recumbent guru

Canada
585 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2012 :  12:24:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@Will: The biggest problem with winter riding will be the weather. Any handlebar mounted fairing will be a weasel to handle in a crosswind.

:)ensen.

Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it.

Video of my trike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSLRD_2vzc
Photos of my trike
http://www.flickr.com/photos/purplepeople/
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WillStewart
Starting Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2012 :  13:52:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@Jensen: I've heard some bodysock users note that crosswinds can be partially negated by an amount of the wind blowing through the sock portion. The actual 'hard' portion of the fairing seems to have a low cross sectional area from the side perspective.
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Upright Dave
New Member

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2012 :  15:24:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With the body sock attached to the front fairing/handlebars, I'd like to know how much resistance there is when turning. Do you have to rotate your body too? Can you make a tight U-turn?
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